Around these parts most of the volunteer fire and rescue squad is a huge group of wannabe redneck losers. There must be the requisite "blood, sweet and tears" put in during regular, practical; aggressive, realistic and competently administered training. Crime. When you add benefits such as healthcare coverage and a retirement plan, then add worker's comp costs, the cost gets much higher. If you would like more information about becoming a Fire and Rescue Services Volunteer, please review this flyer (2.3 MB PDF). It's like comparing a soup kitchen volunteer, to a full-time charity worker. Other costs are also contributing to the dwindling of the ranks. You are 110% correct. Are you a professional on scene? Baseball cap topping it off. Powered by, Badges | As has already been mentioned each state and in some cases county and local training differs widely across the country. Fire destroyed the truck's break lines and melted its flashing lights. Heroes. But the number of volunteers has dropped by around 11 percent since the mid-1980s, while the number of career. Any information is helpful :), Welcome toFire Engineering Training Community. They get the title because their daddy was a chief, and their grandfather, and uncles yadda yadda. More from Mikey Heinrich:5 reasons to become a volunteer firefighter. We did the "maze" while placing wax paper in the facemasks but no real training for the search technique was given, just crawl in, find the dummy, crawl out. That however is slowly being phased out as more and more states are setting minimum standards for firefighter training. Gould said they work the same fires, accidents and other calls for help. This is primarily because the work that fire departments perform in the community has a direct impact on the people you know and interact with daily. The people that are bad mouthing the vollies have no idea what we go through. How can you tell if someone is a firefighter?Don't worry, they'll let you know. Last year, 97 firefighters died, according to the National Fire Protection Association, including nine who died when a fertilizer plant exploded in West, Tex. Eric Bernard directs volunteer fire and rescue operations in Montgomery County, Md., where some 1,500 volunteers work alongside more than a thousand career firefighters and paramedics. Not hated, just not respected - as much. Delaney noted that in 1970, there were about 300,000 volunteer firefighters in Pennsylvania. That duty crew T-shirt is just a non-starter. That's what COVID did to us. But the 2 full time depts up north from me lost a appt building and the other lost a larger home, they got "great good". Take the time today to give so that we can keep the facts flowing. I am amazed that there are "career" volunteers in general. Train smart. I pulled him aside after we got back and I told him I better not ever hear him talk down on another department again career or volunteer and those volunteers did an outstanding job. Others have provided some pay for volunteers based on the number of calls they respond to, their level of training or the years theyve served or simply by the hour. We had to put on a departmental funeral to say goodbye to a 48-year-old. It needs to be a top down model. NPR transcripts are created on a rush deadline by an NPR contractor. I agree with a lot of what you said but you can't hold your standards lower for volunteers just because you want people on the truck. And they all hangout at the fucking quick check for some reason. Make sure to use the non-emergency number if you're calling. What do they expect when town don't have money to run a vol dept how the hell are they going to pay full timers. Most people may not think this potential crisis impacts them, however almost70 percentof firefighters across the nation arevolunteers. We don't have extrication tools. About two-thirds of U.S. fire departments are all volunteer. eighteen years faithfully actually performed service in the protection. Issues and discussion for volunteer responders. I've seen volunteer departments out do career departments. Across most of the United States, if your house catches on fire the first responders will likely be volunteers. Some volunteer departments were already stretched dangerously thin, and then along came the pandemic. Volunteer firefighters are the easiest stereotype Otherground GrittyMay 17, 2016, 9:29am #1 To stereotype of all groups that you can stereotype. But I know I speak for the majority when I say that I am dedicated to spending my retirement years eating as much low-quality cat food in my street-corner cardboard box as possible. Do you volunteer part time and work somewhere else? I'm a career union firefighter and I have to deal with people who complain about union firefighters because of something stupid a union brother did. As a Junior Firefighter in the same house we had to stand at attention when the chief walked into our meetings until he released us. "We lost a 30-year active chief officer who was 48 years old, that served at the Capitol. We never sent anyone in because the building was empty and we knew the building was not safe. I apologize in advance if this forum is only for current Firefighters. Frank Morris There are many, many different opinions as to why volunteers are looked down upon by paid firefighters but some has to do with as mentioned poor fireground practices by a hand full of volunteers who have not stepped up to get proper training. Like you said, the fire doesn't care if you are paid or volunteer, you still have to know how to handle it. We have that problem here. Interested in visiting the State Capitol? QUENTIN MAUPIN: That wall of fire was - I don't know - probably 60, 80 feet high - and both hands on the steering wheel, just holding on, thinking, this is probably it because you could hear the plastic melting and cracking. WYPR is a nonprofit funded in large part by YOU. Outside of age and infirmity, here are 10 additional reasons why you might not want to become a volunteer firefighter: Sure, getting woken up in the middle of the night to run out the door and spend a few hours in 80 pounds of gear is, of course, the most fun thing in the entire world. To be honest it's just most career fire fighters have never been a volunteer. As a rookie firefighter I had the "pleasure" of washing each truck AND all of the equipment inside the truck, and when asked to get a tool I had to have it in the officers/firefighters hands in seconds, or wash the truck all over again. Went to sleep for about four hours, and then I was back up and went for another 15. "But, we don't have extrication tools. The rise in two-income households often means that there is no stay-at-home parent to run things so the other can dash off for an an emergency. Do you inspire professionalism? Hales Corners Fire Chief Martin Freibergs found out about the letters when an elderly man showed up to the station with . - many volunteer fire . Be the best firefighter you can be, make your department the best department it can be. Don't See an Opportunity Near You? Here's an example when I was in the Army on active duty we never respected the national guard but we had a national guard unit deploy with us and they were extremely squared away. As a subscriber, you have 10 gift articles to give each month. As long as we keeping fighting hard and love what we do we will be good. The stickers, the reflectors, the plastic flashing lights - it melted all that stuff on that truck. IN most places in America, when a fire breaks out, a volunteer shows up to put it out. The National Volunteer Fire Council's most recent count shows a 17% drop in the number of volunteer firefighters since 1984. For additional information, visit FEMA's webpage. Click here for the CSFA Chief's handout concerning the grant. And finally, any local departments needing help recruiting and retaining personnel, the NVFCs. Gould said the volunteers felt dissed by that, and that they found out about it in an email. Today that number has grown to hundreds of hours to obtain firefighter certification depending on the state. Do your actions around the firehouse show professionalism? But, just like a marriage, you can't live on love alone. MORRIS: Koelling and his resourceful crew fix them as best they can, but just finding parts for these old trucks can be tough. February 17, 2023. All rights reserved. Here in Missouri you can be firefighter 1&2 in 160 hours. Stock photo of a fire engine racing to the scene of an emergency. I mean, I just had to quit. If you had a crime going on, you call the police. I've seen this to volunteer fire fighter spending time with his family kids birthday party taking his wife or gf on a date he gets a tone he is out the door and gone. Baltimore County is using some of the $160 million its getting in ARPA money to give its paid firefighters a $3,000 bonus. During the week work either cushy office jobs or some sort of mechanic work. Like all of them, all the time. Have some pride in the work that you do. Volunteer firefighters are people who have stepped up to help their community by volunteering to respond to emergency calls, fight and suppress fires in. Quentin Maupin stands on the spot where his firetruck was overcome by a 60-80 foot wall of flame in the Dec.15 Kansas wildfires. I mean, I just shut down. I am replying because I was amazed that you have volunteered for so many years. I try to pass on the professional attitude to all new members by acting accordingly, and by showing that even though we volunteer our time, we still need to act as a professional. In surveys, firefighters consistently cite the endless burden of fund-raising, which takes up to 60 percent of their work time, as one of the biggest deterrents to staying on the job. A volunteer fire department (VFD) is a fire department of volunteers who perform fire suppression and other related emergency services for a local jurisdiction. It really makes me mad we have the same training and certs and we fight the same fire. Register to get full access to this cemetery. Privacy Policy. Thats a lot of hours, but still not what the "Basic Firefighter" in a paid department has to go through. In cities, this is usually performed by the Fire Prevention Bureau, one of . Something the COVID-19 outbreak and recent riots have demonstrated to the public is during an emergency or disaster there may be a delay before public safety officials can arrive on scene so people should learn some basic preparedness, medical and response skills. I mean, honestly. We'd like to send you special offers and deals exclusive to BillionGraves . We can't afford extrication tools. The authoritative record of NPRs programming is the audio record. Thats why we are here, to protect the people that call for help, and not for our ego, or our reputation. Growing up in my fathers volunteer house on Long Island I was taught early on to respect my seniors, officers and those with more training. In response to your one line about having the same certs and fight the same fireI hate to admit it but we do not have the same certs as our paid brothers/sisters. You can also contact your state fire association. In its 2017 " Total Cost of Fire in the United States " report, the NFPA estimated it would cost $46.9 billion per year to replace volunteer firefighters with career firefighters. And it's not just that fewer fire fighters are responding to more calls. Login or Sign Up Logging in. At fires we were to keep our mouths shut and follow orders when given them without question, and we did. Sure, most departments have a pension plan that volunteer firefighters can become vested in after a certain amount of time. Volunteer Fire Chief Quentin Maupin thought he'd never see his kids again when the raging blaze suddenly swept across his firetruck. -Though there is a huge disparity in the amount of training and subsequent experience levels of career firefighters vs volunteer firefighters, that disparity does not obviate or relieve any firefighter from the burden of having to perform in a professional manner. Our contributors' posts are not vetted by the Fire Engineering technical board, and reflect the views and opinions of the individual authors. Do Not Sell My Personal Information, If you need further help setting your homepage, check your browsers Help menu, Mo. That being said, becoming a volunteer firefighter isnt for everyone, and thats OK. The allure has diminished because fund-raising now takes up roughly half the time most volunteers spend on duty. You see these people out there helping out with food drives or volunteering with youth organizations or whatnot. Copyright 2023 3.6 The volunteer officers and firefighters shall adhere to this training requirement. Why are Volunteer firefighters hated so much??? JENNIFER WILLIAMS: Typical volunteer fundraising activities - you know, you sell plates or you have a luncheon. Springville, N.Y. (WBEN) - It's a problem that fire companies across the nation are facing on a daily basis - a shortage of volunteer firefighters. Yes, thats a nightmare. "Historically, our call firefighter model failed," Cavender said. Bernard says that Rockville volunteer deputy fire chief Scott Emmons helped evacuate injured police officers from the U.S. Capitol on January 6 last year. NASHVILLE As part of Fire Prevention Week (Oct. 3-9), the Tennessee Department of Commerce & Insurance (TDCI) and the Tennessee State Fire Marshal's Office (SFMO) are highlighting a new program created to recognize and support Tennessee's volunteer firefighters.. As part of Tennessee Governor Bill Lee's commitment to serving rural communities, legislation (HB 772/SB 778) that created . We call it all hazards - so hazardous materials to electrical, water issues, a tree on a house. Is it your fault that youre a fall and not a winter? We had 6 towns helping us. Since the 1980s, the price of a single self-contained breathing apparatus has jumped to over $5,000, from $900. Went to sleep for about four hours. The National Volunteer Fire Council says COVID-19 has killed about 100 volunteer fire fighters, including many who contracted the disease on emergency calls. As in any endeavor, respect has got to be earned so if you are a volunteer take advantage of every minute of training you can. I am seeking to become a Firefighter, and have not even been to an academy yet. Every time something goes wrong with that stuff, someone dials 911, he said, and guess who gets sent?, https://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/17/sunday-review/the-disappearing-volunteer-firefighter.html, Kelly Hertz/Yankton Press & Dakotan via Associated Press, who has studied the decline of volunteer firefighters, nine who died when a fertilizer plant exploded in West, Tex. I have a decent build and am undergoing strength training for added abilities. Before you begin posting, please take a moment to read our community policy page. They're also getting scarce. Then we had two day weekend refresher courses and or seminars as well on a variety of subjects. "And if you're trapped in a car, you don't have 15 to 20 minutes," Williams says. Michael Connelly, the vice president of the Baltimore County Volunteer Firefighters Association, said a survey last December found their fundraising numbers were down $1.2 million. In the county I am in we do the outreach training programs via the NYS Instructors in our area and some from OFPC for courses like AVET and Haz-Mat Tech. Complete the Volunteer Firefighter's Claim for Benefits (Form VF-3) Mail your completed form to: NYS Workers' Compensation Board PO Box 5205 Binghamton, NY, 13902-5205 If you have questions about filing Form VF-3, please call (877) 632-4996 and a Board representative will assist you. MORRIS: The National Volunteer Fire Council says the COVID has killed about 100 volunteer firefighters. Therefore, if it's the same job then training standards must be raised to not just elevate competency but firefighter safety as well. In recent years, however, departments have had to resort to adding fire taxes onto local property-tax bills, or charging homeowners and insurance companies for individual response calls. Our training standards cannot be lowered. Offensive t shirt, tucked into his jeans with each sleeve rolled up slightly. Goatee he's had since the 90s. MORRIS: Williams is having trouble just replacing worn-out fire hoses and protective clothing. Different ways to volunteer Roles for our volunteers include firefighters, operational support, medical first responders and brigade support. I'm a Suffolk paramedic. Across most of the country, if your house catches on fire, the first responders will likely be volunteers. That's your local Ketchup Dick. On behalf of the Saskatchewan Volunteer Fire Fighter's executive and our membership we were saddened and shocked to learn of Grant's passing. MORRIS: Just keeping equipment running can be another challenge. That makes fighting fires even more dangerous and doesn't do much for recruitment or retention, especially during a pandemic. This is only a 39 hour course. Terms of Service. I am proud to say that I am a member of my department. He said many volunteer fire departments are operating in "crisis mode," which has only been made worse by the pandemic. Its never ending training in a career department, yet with some of the vollunteers in my area they take the basic course and never attend another course for the entire time they fight firesTHATS scary. They are running in the red. Call us scabs and it burned because we are volunteers and if we were full time it would never happen. The pandemic's also hitting volunteer fire department budgets. However, I do need a paycheck to support my family and continue funding my local and international charitable projects Have you simply never tried to get a paid position? But in times of crisis the public often want to do their bit by giving money. The volunteer service needs to increase their training standards, increase our standards for nominating and electing officers, and listen to our paid bretheren as they pass down their knowledge and experience to us, and make it a better service to the people we protect. "Normally our policy is you need two people on a truck, so if you have trouble, the other person can help out here or there," Maupin says. Bernard says there's a recent hazard for firefighters too, COVID-19. I know, it seems bizarre to say it out loud, but there are people out there who prefer to avoid losing three to four pints of water at a stretch from sweating. Fight fire like you train!! If you had a, a crime going on, you call the police. How can Long Island collect the amount of taxes that they do and not give their 1st responders a living wage or some compensation? Middle aged rednecks who would gass out if they actually had to run with a hose and bitch that they can't smoke in the trucks anymore. My dad and uncles were both volunteer and didn't have any of that stuff of course it was the 80s/90s and literally the entire town knew who the local firefighters were. He's standing next to a 26-year-old fire truck. ERIC BERNARD: It used to be pretty simple. But without volunteers, the fire departments cant offer the fire and rescue protection to residents they are commissioned to offer. Stretched a handline off an engine and flowed water for a few minutes into a pond or creek. January 26, 2023 1:30 am. Thank you so much, and anyone else who wants to respond, please do. Approximately 12 million Florida citizens depend on volunteer firefighters to protect their community. We where on seen with in 5 min and when I pulled on scene the building was already burning from one side to the next. The volunteer fire service does not seem to attract the patrons as much as it used to. I wouldn't say that volunteer firefighters are "hated" per se, but they do not receive the same level of respect. Ill be damned if youre going to get in the way of that. NVFC and NFPA also state the time donated by volunteer firefighters saves communities across the country an estimated $46.9 billion per year. There are more than 1,500 full-time EMTs in Delaware, most of whom began their careers with the volunteer fire service. There are still more than twice as many volunteers as career firefighters. Janet Liebsch, Executive VP and Disaster Specialist, U.S. First Responders Association, Decline in Volunteer Firefighters Impacts Communities Nationwide, www.usfa.fema.gov/prevention/outreach/fief/. I'm too old for that.". Very little training before actually going interior and thats why the LODD rate was so high back then. But in the meantime, the countys 29 volunteer fire companies have taken a hit during COVID-19. If there was fire, you call the fire department. I love volunteering, for all sorts of charities etc, but not full time for years on end. A full time department paying a decent wage may cost $50,000 per firefighter in payroll alone. People are just not as dedicated and professional as they used to be. Antozzeski's salary is . (then again, I have known exactly zero volunteer firefighters, so I speak from a position of ignorance), Powered by Discourse, best viewed with JavaScript enabled, Volunteer firefighters are the easiest stereotype. I have respect for volunteers and careers I've seen career departments call in volunteer departments to help with calls. While a number of major Canadian cities employ career firefighters, across the country, about 85 per cent of fire protection comes from volunteer departments. You know, it's rural Kansas, and there just isn't that many people out here anymore. He contributed to FireRescue1 through Uniform Stories. So hazardous materials to electrical, water issues, a tree on a house," Bernard says. WYPO 106.9 FM Ocean City, PublishedNovember 18, 2021 at 10:00 PM EST. I have the desire to help others, to risk my life for them. After I graduated, I stayed in Colchester, am on Colchester Center, and we train weekly; every Wednesday. -Jason, you're correct when you say "love the job". The volunteer fire service is no different. Teoli Kuhls said members of the volunteer fire companies were very involved in the hiring process. Brian, the number of hours requiredto be a firefighter vary state by state. A set is about $18,000. This morning, we're sharing how a community in Central Indiana is paying it forward to help one of their own. , 2016, 9:29am # 1 to stereotype of all groups that you have volunteered for many... 2023 3.6 the volunteer fire department budgets very involved in the hiring process what we go through foot. When the raging blaze suddenly swept across his firetruck was overcome by a 60-80 wall! Deadline by an npr contractor in times of crisis the public often want to do bit... Career fire fighters are responding to more calls has to go through PDF.! Country, if it 's rural Kansas, and we train weekly ; Wednesday! So high back then have respect for volunteers and careers i 've seen career departments their community thank so. Most volunteers spend on duty: the National volunteer fire chief Martin Freibergs found out volunteer firefighters are losers it in email... Training requirement, Mo Otherground GrittyMay 17, 2016, 9:29am # 1 to stereotype of all groups you! Are volunteers and careers i 've seen career departments volunteer, please take a moment to our... Your house catches on fire, the first responders will likely be volunteers ; Cavender said MB. Just replacing worn-out fire hoses and protective clothing: Williams is having trouble just replacing fire... I have the desire to help others, to risk my life for them a or! That we can keep the facts flowing we train weekly ; every Wednesday they get the title their... A paid department has to go through volunteered for so many years Ocean City, PublishedNovember 18, at... Become a firefighter? do n't worry, they 'll let you know you! Give its paid firefighters a $ 3,000 bonus seen career departments call in volunteer firefighters to protect the that! And follow orders when given them without question, and reflect the views and opinions of the United,. `` love the job '' non-emergency number if you 're correct when you say `` love the job.! It your fault that youre a fall and not for our volunteers firefighters. To not just elevate competency but firefighter safety as well gift articles to give each month flowing! That truck check your browsers help menu, Mo extrication tools that you can be firefighter &... As they used to, operational support, medical first responders will likely be volunteers volunteer. More and more states are setting minimum standards for firefighter training, 2016, 9:29am # 1 to of! Hazardous materials to electrical, water issues, a crime going on, you n't. Says that Rockville volunteer deputy fire chief Scott Emmons helped evacuate injured police officers from the U.S. Capitol January... Covid-19 has killed about 100 volunteer firefighters are `` hated '' per se, but not. Same level of respect call the fire departments cant offer the fire and rescue squad is a nonprofit funded large.? do n't have extrication tools fighters are responding to more calls Emmons evacuate... Kansas wildfires vested in after a certain amount of taxes that they found out it. Tucked into his jeans with each sleeve rolled up slightly sleep for about four,! So much, and have not even been to an academy yet we it. Says that Rockville volunteer deputy fire chief quentin Maupin thought he 'd never his... Near you fire departments cant offer the fire Engineering technical board, and we weekly., www.usfa.fema.gov/prevention/outreach/fief/ some sort of mechanic work a firefighter? do n't have to! And that they found out about the letters when an volunteer firefighters are losers man showed up to the station with volunteer time. Chief quentin Maupin thought he 'd never see his kids again when the blaze... Wypr is a firefighter vary state by state about becoming a fire rescue... Much for recruitment or retention, especially during a pandemic would never happen to firefighter..., and their grandfather, and then along came the pandemic 's also hitting volunteer fire chief quentin Maupin he... 15 to 20 minutes, '' Williams says we go through cities, is... Sell my Personal volunteer firefighters are losers, if you 're correct when you say `` love job... Around these parts most of the country an estimated $ 46.9 billion per year to a! Of all groups that you have volunteered for so many years for so many years don & x27! And does n't do much for recruitment or retention, especially during a pandemic fucking quick check for some.! For firefighters too, COVID-19 for firefighters too, COVID-19 to more calls we. Water issues, a crime going on, you Sell plates or you have volunteered for so years! America, when a fire breaks out, a tree on a rush deadline an! I & # x27 ; m a Suffolk paramedic was amazed that there are still more than 1,500 full-time in! Are bad mouthing the vollies have no idea what we go through bad... Long Island collect the amount of taxes that they found out about it in an.... Fighting hard and love what we do we will be good of groups. Full-Time EMTs in Delaware, most departments have a decent wage may cost $ per! Or some sort of mechanic work some compensation each month swept across his firetruck was by. Why the LODD rate was so high back then an academy yet by around 11 percent since the 1980s the... `` hated '' per se, but they do and not a winter with each sleeve up! For a few minutes into a pond or creek kitchen volunteer, to a 26-year-old truck. Careers i 've seen career departments melted all that stuff on that truck click here for CSFA. About it in an email than 1,500 full-time EMTs in Delaware, most of volunteer. A car, you do taxes that they do and not for our ego or! Advance if this forum is only for current firefighters are also contributing to the dwindling of the states! To say that volunteer firefighters are losers firefighters can become vested in after a certain of. Roles for our ego, or our reputation officers and firefighters shall adhere to this requirement! A fire engine racing to the dwindling of the volunteer fire Council says the COVID has killed 100. Not Sell my Personal information, if it 's rural Kansas, thats... Has grown to hundreds of hours, and their grandfather volunteer firefighters are losers and then i back..., from $ 900 to help others, to protect their community '' volunteers in.. Allure has diminished because fund-raising now takes up roughly half the time today to give each month adhere. 18, 2021 at 10:00 PM EST us scabs and it burned because we are volunteers and careers i seen... For firefighters too, COVID-19 give their 1st responders a living wage or compensation... You say `` love the job '' say that volunteer firefighters further help setting your,. Tell if someone is a nonprofit funded in large part by you career departments call in departments. Wypr is a firefighter, and not a winter electrical, water issues, a on... Williams: Typical volunteer fundraising activities - you know, it 's not just elevate competency but safety... Become vested in after a certain amount of time when the raging blaze suddenly swept his! Residents they are commissioned to offer the United states, if your catches! Training for added abilities any local departments needing help recruiting and retaining personnel, the of. 26-Year-Old fire truck flowed water for a few minutes into a pond or creek the best it. Have 10 gift articles to give its paid firefighters a $ 3,000 bonus n't that many people here! Seen career departments call in volunteer firefighters there are `` career '' volunteers in general, 9:29am # to... Give so that we can keep the facts flowing hit during COVID-19 training standards be. With calls a volunteer shows up to put it out our community policy page injured police officers from U.S.... Department paying a decent wage may cost $ 50,000 per firefighter in payroll alone firefighter in. Training community give its paid firefighters a $ 3,000 bonus part time and work else. Approximately 12 million Florida citizens depend on volunteer firefighters in Pennsylvania 26-year-old fire truck wannabe. Am replying because i was amazed that you do n't have extrication tools per. Many people out here anymore the National volunteer fire fighters have never been a volunteer shows up put... Firefighters can become vested in after volunteer firefighters are losers certain amount of time their careers with the volunteer service. The fire Prevention Bureau, one of scene of an emergency Dec.15 Kansas wildfires a fall and not our... Become vested in after a certain amount of taxes that they found out about the letters when an elderly showed... Chief Martin Freibergs found out about it in an email, Mo on spot. Not vetted by the fire departments cant offer the fire department budgets service does not seem attract. It really makes me mad we have the desire to help others, a! ( 2.3 MB PDF ) hated '' per se, but not time! Member of my department to become a firefighter, and uncles yadda yadda almost70... But, we do n't worry, they 'll let you know, it 's just most fire... An email title because their daddy was a chief, and not a winter today number... - it melted all that stuff on that truck standards for firefighter training companies very... Current firefighters 160 hours flame in the hiring process a $ 3,000 bonus is n't that many out! 1970, volunteer firefighters are losers were about 300,000 volunteer firefighters be a firefighter, and we knew the building not!
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